Ideas for changing a diatonic harp tuning on the fly

[dominico]

I've often wanted to be able to change maybe just a couple notes on a diatonic on the fly, in order to change between similar tunings.

I actually achieved this using the Turboslide to be able to switch on the fly from normal Richter to Paddy Richter. I raised 3 Blow up a tone so the harp's default is Paddy Richter, and I changed the distance of the magnet for 3 Blow to drop the reed back to its original tuning. It works. I pulled out all the other magnets and I have a harp that can switch from Paddy to normal richter just by holding the slide in.

However it has some issues: it currently can only affect the blow reeds, and for the smaller reeds if you try to adjust the magnet to get lower than a semitone it gets very unstable. Experimenting with dropping 7 or 8 blow by more than a semitone caused a very unstable note. its odd: the note slowly rises the more you hold it.

You can use the turboslide to create a sort of 2nd position minor harp as well as you can get the flat 6 out of 2 and 5 blow with it. Here we hit another drawback of the turboslide: it only works on blow notes.

To switch on the fly between a standard and minor tuned harp I'd need the ability to drop the draw reeds as well.

Another super fun tuning I've grown to love is "Easy Third". Easy Third drops 2 draw and 3 draw each a full tone so that holes 1 2 and 3 match the note layout of holes 4 5 and 6.

It would be great to have some harps that could switch on the fly between related tunings, that are the same size of normal diatonics.

My current harp case has 12 diatonics, 6 "minor tuned" harps, and I'm starting to build up a small collection of "Easy Third" harps for keys where the octave range makes more sense to play them in 3rd position instead of 2nd ("I'm looking at you Am")

So Turboslide is out unless you happen to switch a lot between Paddy Richter and standard Richter.

I'm looking for other ideas.

I know something like this could be achieved on a chromatic platform, and chroms are now more inexpensive than ever, but even these 10 hole chomatics are just.. too bulky. I'd still want something I can drop in a pocket, and I don't want to carry a case of 12 chromatic sized harmonicas (maybe I could settle for two dimi tuned chromatics)

A diatonic sized harmonica that could switch on the fly between default tuning and "easy third" would be so much fun. Just saying
Why Easy Third instead of Paddy for playing in 3rd in the lower octave? One answer: Because the 5th is a bendable draw in Easy Third.

[Brendan]

My twin diatonic Switch-Harp is currently the only option that would give you alternate tunings in a relatively small size harmonica:

https://www.brendan-power.com/harmonica ... switchharp

However it's still bulkier than a standard diatonic. I have something in the pipeline that could suit what you're after, but it's still a work in progress with no release date as yet.

[triona]

However it has some issues: it currently can only affect the blow reeds, and for the smaller reeds if you try to adjust the magnet to get lower than a semitone it gets very unstable. Experimenting with dropping 7 or 8 blow by more than a semitone caused a very unstable note. its odd: the note slowly rises the more you hold it.

Maybe the adhesion force of the relatively small dimensioned magnets is declining by the time when the reed as its counterpiece is oscillating continually?
At least movement is a common method to detach a permanent magnet intentionally.

You can use the turboslide to create a sort of 2nd position minor harp as well as you can get the flat 6 out of 2 and 5 blow with it. Here we hit another drawback of the turboslide: it only works on blow notes.

To switch on the fly between a standard and minor tuned harp I'd need the ability to drop the draw reeds as well.

Nice challenge! I wish you good luck!

Btw: Seydel once had a temporarily produced special model called "All Minor"
They used 2 of these magnets mounted into the upper cover. The slide pins of the magnets reached through the cover in a narrow slot each. The slides were pushed by the fingers. Unfortunately they soon discontinued this model (before I got hold on one. )

I presume that they discontinued it because the control of the pitch by the slide magnets were a bit unstable i.e. unprecise in the outcome of the pitch. It seemed to me like a kind of a predecessor of Dr. Antaki's turboharp.

https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel ... D=41173868

A diatonic sized harmonica that could switch on the fly between default tuning and "easy third" would be so much fun. Just saying

My twin diatonic Switch-Harp is currently the only option that would give you alternate tunings in a small size harmonica:

Exactly this I intended to suggest to you as well.
Brendan just was faster than me.


dear greetings
triona

[dominico]

My twin diatonic Switch-Harp is currently the only option that would give you alternate tunings in a relatively small size harmonica:

https://www.brendan-power.com/harmonica ... switchharp

However it's still bulkier than a standard diatonic. I have something in the pipeline that could suit what you're after, but it's still a work in progress with no release date as yet.

I happen to have one of those!

Yes. It fits my use case exactly, except that it is still a bit too bulky to fit in my pocket, and I would need 11 more switchharps

If you can slim it down to the size of a single diatonic that would be phenomenal actually.

I play almost exclusively regular breath tunings. So really I just need something to switch between draw plates, or extra draw reeds.

switchharp-do.jpg (105.33 KiB) Viewed 189 times

Nice challenge! I wish you good luck!

Btw: Seydel once had a temporarily produced special model called "All Minor"
They used 2 of these magnets mounted into the upper cover. The slide pins of the magnets reached through the cover in a narrow slot each. The slides were pushed by the fingers. Unfortunately they soon discontinued this model (before I got hold on one. )

I presume that they discontinued it because the control of the pitch by the slide magnets were a bit unstable i.e. unprecise in the outcome of the pitch. It seemed to me like a kind of a predecessor of Dr. Antaki's turboharp.

https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel ... D=41173868

One good news is that this concept proves magnetically dropping draw reed pitch is possible I also see why they attached the magnet to the cover plate instead of the on a slider like Jim Antaki.

The problem with a slider on the draw plate is that it would get in the way of the draw reeds. But, since I just learned about "overvalve" plates from these discussions maybe something similar, and "overplate spacer" could be created for a turboslide device to be mounted underneath the draw reeds..
Actually, I think I will try printing a very thin version of my comb as a prototype and try exactly that...

[triona]

... I would need 11 more switchharps

I fear you will not escape this as long as you stick to diatonics - of which variant ever.

... Seydel ... "All Minor" ...

One good news is that this concept proves magnetically dropping draw reed pitch is possible I also see why they attached the magnet to the cover plate instead of the on a slider like Jim Antaki.

That depends on a significant difference between Seydel All Minor and Antaki Turboharp:
The function of the All Minor's slide magnets is to detune single reeds separately and independent from each other. On the other hand the intention of the Turboharp's slider of the is to detune all reeds of the whole reedplate equally at the same time. The latter you could vary by just removing single magnets. But this maybe would lead to some other downsides. At least the slider of the turboslide has a more stable mechanical function than the tiny slide pins of the All Minor.


dear greetings
triona

[EdvinW]

Hello Dominico and welcome to the forum!

If you want a way to instantly swap the reeds of a single hole in a diatonic, would it be an option to simply include an extra hole and use some mechanism to block the hole you don't want? This would make the harp longer, but maybe if it's just one or two holes you want to change it's acceptable.

More precisely, if you wanted a diatonic where you can switch between standard Richter and Paddy you could tune the first few holes as follows:

Code: Select all

Hole: 1  2  3a 3b 4 
Blow: c  e  g  a  c
Draw: d  g  b  b  d

If you want to play Richter, block hole 3b. If you want to play Paddy, block hole 3a.

To have a harp that alternates between Paddy and Easy Third, you could tune the first holes as follows:

Code: Select all

Hole: 1  2a 2b 3a 3b 4
Blow: c  e  e  g  a  c  
Draw: d  f  g  a  b  d  

Blocking 2b and 3b you get Easy Third. Blocking 2a and 3a you get Paddy tuning.


This is a little longer than a standard harp (at least unless you don't care about the top two holes!) but doesn't need to be thicker. The mechanism you choose to block the holes could be any one you fancy, it just needs to block the air. It might even be enough to push down on the reeds to stop them from sounding.

It also changes the playing technique somewhat in the bottom octave, with longer jumps between holes.

Does this help you at all?

[dominico]

If you want a way to instantly swap the reeds of a single hole in a diatonic, would it be an option to simply include an extra hole and use some mechanism to block the hole you don't want? This would make the harp longer, but maybe if it's just one or two holes you want to change it's acceptable.

More precisely, if you wanted a diatonic where you can switch between standard Richter and Paddy you could tune the first few holes as follows:

Code: Select all

Hole: 1  2  3a 3b 4 
Blow: c  e  g  a  c
Draw: d  g  b  b  d

If you want to play Richter, block hole 3b. If you want to play Paddy, block hole 3a.

To have a harp that alternates between Paddy and Easy Third, you could tune the first holes as follows:

Code: Select all

Hole: 1  2a 2b 3a 3b 4
Blow: c  e  e  g  a  c  
Draw: d  f  g  a  b  d  

Blocking 2b and 3b you get Easy Third. Blocking 2a and 3a you get Paddy tuning.


This is a little longer than a standard harp (at least unless you don't care about the top two holes!) but doesn't need to be thicker. The mechanism you choose to block the holes could be any one you fancy, it just needs to block the air. It might even be enough to push down on the reeds to stop them from sounding.

Does this help you at all?

It give me ideas, that's for sure!

I like the idea of using a 12 hole diatonic harp, like the Lucky13 or the Seyel Solist and repurposing some reeds. This certainly sounds easier than cutting up reedplates to add extra reeds like I was considering

Yes, the wider jump would be something to overcome, but since I can now print my own combs maybe I can compensate with some clever hole spacing.

This is a great idea and gives me something to ponder. Thank you!

[triona]

Yes, the wider jump would be something to overcome, but since I can now print my own combs maybe I can compensate with some clever hole spacing.

It is true that you easily can produce any comb with 3-D-Print. But keep in mind, that you need fitting reedplates to any comb. And they are not as easy to print like combs. (See here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=936 )
You easily can retune or exchange single or all reeds of a reedplate. But I guess you prefer to use standard default reedplates as a base.

An alternative for testing various tunings might be Brendan's ingenious Modular Reed Harmonica:
https://www.brendan-power.com/ModularHarp.php


dear greetings
triona

[FingerSinger]

Hi dominico,

I am on the similar quest (on and off) for about 10 years now. I have made a post about it on this forum about a year ago - viewtopic.php?f=9&t=913

The goal is to be able to change individual reeds’ tuning, and ideally still keep it in 10 hole diatonic package.

For me twin harp would not really work cause i want Richter / Paddy Richter / Country modes for harmonica.

So far the most workable idea seems to be to fit 2 reeds in one hole somehow (maybe with some extension of the reed plate under the coverplates) and then block one of two reeds with some switch.

But these ideas require time to develop which is really hard to find…

[FingerSinger]

My twin diatonic Switch-Harp is currently the only option that would give you alternate tunings in a relatively small size harmonica:

https://www.brendan-power.com/harmonica ... switchharp

However it's still bulkier than a standard diatonic. I have something in the pipeline that could suit what you're after, but it's still a work in progress with no release date as yet.

Brendan, i’m really looking forward to see abovementioned “something”!