Seydel 1847 Slipslider Project

[dominico]

While looking at ways to improve the Seydel 1847 comb I decided to tackle building a Slipslider style harmonica using the Seydel 1847 platform.

I watched Brendan's "Make your own Slipslider MkII" video and it gave me a lot of inspiration.

One additional challenge I wanted to put onto myself was to make it be completely reversible. Other than parts I can 3d print, I wanted all the hardware to be normally accessible, and to not modify in irreversible way the reedplates or the coverplates, so no drilling holes or cutting out chunks of the reedplates or coverplates.

I have now a pretty good working prototype. Funny enough, since I don't ever play a richter tuning, I only ever play a Powerbender or Power-derived tunings (Wilde, Paddy Richter Extended). I don't own any richter harps, so "slide left" isn't super useful to me. But I included it in my design anyway because other people obviously do play richter.
One thing I noticed is that "slide slightly left or slightly right" gives relaly strong single reed bends, since the draw reeds are completely blocked. That was a pretty cool discovery.

Below I have some images of the build process,

Here I did an intro video for the magnetic coverplate inserts with a super quick slipslider demo as well if you feel like listening to me drone on about it for a few minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI36r54UEbo

I will do a longer more detailed construction and demo video probably over the weekend.

Once you have the 3d printed parts, magnets, and various sized M1.6 screws in hand construction only requires a small screwdriver.

Top side of the comb; you see the primary slot to control the sliding distance of the drawplate, over the high reeds, and a secondary stabilizing slot over the low reeds. The slot over the high reeds is counter sunk; I felt like I needed at least one thing more definitive than magnets to keep the draw plate attached to the comb. Also note the magnet pockets in each corner of the comb.

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The bottom side of the comb. You can see the countersunk screw holes which hold the blow reed plate in place, as well as the opposing corner pockets for more magnets. There is 1mm of material between the opposing face magnet pockets, allowing the magnets to self adhere in the comb.

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[dominico]

Self adhering comb magnets

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The blow reedplate is held on from countersunk M1.6 screws and a nut

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[Brendan]

Nice work, Dom! Please send us a sound clip when you have it playing as you wish.

Are you using ABS or PLA for your 3d printed parts? On some of my SlipSlider designs I attached a 1mm Teflon liner to the inside of the draw plate, to aid sliding and allow unhindered movement when the low reeds were still swinging. Actually PETG filament has quite good sliding properties, so could be a good choice for this harp.

I always thought the SlipSlider concept is the perfect solution for Richter players who want to retain all the good stuff in their traditional harps (no valves, same tone, overblow ability), whilst giving them all those missing bends. And, not just that, familiar breathing patterns transposed to different parts of the harp:

SLIDE LEFT:
Familiar middle octave breathing pattern holes 3-6 now in holes 6-10

SLIDE RIGHT:
Familiar top octave pattern holes 7-10 now in holes 4-7

It overcomes every problem of the Richter harp without compromising the sound. How could players not love it!?

But sadly I'd underestimated the lack of mental flexibility of the vast majority of Richter players. Having different note arrangements in the harp totally threw them! I sent some freebies to top-level Richter players (I won't name names) who I thought would just love the hugely increased musical opportunities the SlipSlider offered. But to my surprise it confused them too...

No amount of explanation, charts, or demos could overcome their entrenched muscle memory. It turns out Richter players are so used to the breathing pattern flipping at hole 7 that when the high octave was available to them in the same familiar breathing pattern they used in the middle octave, the muscle memory dominated and they literally couldn't play a note...

It's a kind of subconscious programming, like Pavlov's Dog: when their mouth hits the upper octave, their brain expects the reversed breathing pattern, as if it's something immutable. I said "Just switch off your brain and imagine you're in holes 3-6, then use those familiar licks!" - but they literally couldn't do it. It was too traumatizing; after a couple of tries they gave up, and that was it.

I hadn't expected such a deeply ingrained reaction, and found it utterly bizarre! Not to mention quite disappointing...

But then I've been experimenting with alternate tunings from the very start of my playing career nearly 50 years ago - whereas the overwhelming majority of harp players have always played Richter, and only Richter. To my surprise it turned out their brains were totally hard wired into the tuning scale, and simply could not compute when it changed with the left/right shifts of the SlipSlider. To my further surprise, this confusion remained even when I explained that the SlipSlider was simply shifting familiar Richter scale chunks (with all their good aspects) to new places on the harp, to enable heaps of cool new expression.

The exception was Todd Parrott. He really gets it, and loves the SlipSlider! And there are a few others too, scattered about the planet. But, because of the general lack of interest amongst the vast majority of Richter players, after laboriously designing/making/producing SlipSlider designs MK1, MK2 & MK3 I've given up... As the old adage goes: "You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink". 🥴

Actually the fate of the SlipSlider was a good lesson to me in how profoundly conservative the harmonica market is, in both chromatics and diatonics. Even though the Richter un-valved diatonic and Solo tuned fully-valved chromatic were at one point (over 100 years ago) new and radical, since then they've become deeply entrenched. Not just in what's available from the manufacturers (who are happy to simply churn out minor variations on the two established formats), but also in the subconscious minds of millions of players. Many seem to believe that these two arbitrary setups are almost divinely preordained, the only way harmonicas should be...

So it's nice to see someone here with a fresh enthusiasm for the SlipSlider concept, invented by my clever Hungarian friend Zombor Kovacs (another engineer BTW). Thanks Dom, you've brightened up my day

[dominico]

Nice work, Dom! Please send us a sound clip when you have it playing as you wish.

I will happily do so! I'm thinking of using it to play some first position blues in the lower octaves, since "Slide RIght" gives you that flat 3, and gives you a bit of bendiness in the root note to do a some expressive vibrato, it would be a good showcase for it.

It overcomes every problem of the Richter harp without compromising the sound. How could players not love it!?

I've seen this firsthand as well. Seeing people struggle to get used to Will Wilde's Tuning is baffling to me, its basically just the hole pattern for holes 2 3 and 4 repeated all the way up. But "richter people" seem to really struggle with just taking an octave pattern they already know and moving it to another place on the harp.

I was at SPAH last year and I saw Will offer a rather famous harmonica player, whom I very much respect and don't want to name here, to try out a harp in his tuning. That player flat refused, "oh no, I only ever play richter, other tunings would mess me up" and that was that.

I think, paradoxically, those of us who have gotten used to alternate tunings have a better ability to mentally move our mapped octaves around the harp than those that have only played one tuning their entire lives.

A slipslider would help someone like us get more expression out of a richter better than it would help a richter player better play a richter
If I had richter reedplates for the 1847 the first thing I would do is put them on the Slipslider.

If I may give you some encouragement for the bright future of harmonica players, many younger that I've spoken too are moving away from Richter, either into your tunings or their own tunings. Seydel certainly encourages alternate tunings, Bertram for example loves Easy Third.

Howard Levy in his latest book "Rhythms of Breath Volume 2" mentions you by name and says that alternate tunings are much more common and widespread than they used to be.
Richter may continue to hold dominance for a long time to come, but but the prevalence and easy of access of alternate tunings is changing the game. They will become more and more widespread with each passing year.

[Brendan]

Thanks for your interesting reply Dom.

It's good to hear that younger players are looking around more widely at the myriad options our wonderfully multi-configurable instrument can offer them, rather than just accepting unquestioningly the two standard formats the manufacturers provide.

However, it's not easy to overcome the kind of cultural inertia that accrues from a century's worth of established work, in the form of great recordings, live videos, all the online teaching etc etc. The vast majority of good players now use either Richter tuned diatonics or Solo tuned chromatics, and they naturally are sharing their skills and knowledge as part of their business. So the incentive is pretty strong for new players to keep doing the same thing, learning the same old riffs and patterns derived from those tunings.

That's natural, because it's a lot easier than rethinking things from first principles, coming up with your own ideal tuning scheme (or adopting a niche one), and then making finding/making harps in that tuning. That's a much higher barrier to entry.

You can liken a harmonica tuning to a computer operating system, like Mac or Windows. Once you get used to a particular ecosystem, and learn its little quirks, shortcuts etc (a bit like licks in a harp), it's really hard to switch to a different operating system.

I experienced that recently myself. I've always used Windows PCs and Android phones. However, I bought a used iPad awhile ago to play Midi harmonica through, and became more and more impressed with the fantastic music apps available on iOS but not Android (because of its bad latency).

So, when it came time to buy a new phone, I decided to just go all the way and switch to an iPhone. Aaargh...! I quickly realised what a mission this would turn out to be. Every familiar app I was used to (eg. WhatsApp) looked and worked totally different on the iPhone. Not just that, but all the stuff Google does in the background had to be switched over to Apple. It basically required re-learning how to use the phone virtually from scratch. (Which is exactly what Apple and Google are reinforcing, by ensnaring users in the increasingly intricate webs of their operating systems).

After a couple of days I decided life was too short for this sort of trivial hassle. So I returned the expensive iPhone, bought a more powerful new Android phone AND a new iPad (just for music) for the same money, and got back to doing stuff.

It's similar for the long-term Richter guys trying an unfamiliar tuning, so I feel their pain!

However, the SlipSlider is different. It's NOT an alternate tuning at all: it remains Richter by default, no different to a stock harp, retaining all it's good familiar stuff. Little Walter could record Juke on it exactly the same way he did in 1952! But then the left/right shifts open up all those missing bends, plus heaps of other cool stuff for Richter players to explore.

You could even say the Richter SlipSlider pretty much makes alternate tunings redundant, because in many significant ways it actually does MORE than they can.

That's why I don't understand the incomprehension and resistance to this truly magical harmonica amongst some of today's top players, when I sent them the SlipSlider freebies...

I bet one thing: if Little Walter had been given a SlipSlider, he'd have loved it! That's because he was truly open-minded and adventurous.

[Brendan]

It's unfair to only highlight the mental inflexibility of Richter players - because exactly the same situation pertains with chromatic players. Their operating system lock is even stronger actually: they are not just wedded to one tuning of harmonica, but also just one key!

Yes... You'd be amazed at the number of C Solo chromatic players who have never tried a chromatic in another key (they're available in all 12). And, if they did try one, they instantly rejected it because the pitch of the notes in the different holes didn't correspond with what they were accustomed to hearing. I've seen it in person: if hole #5 blow wasn't a C5 note, it totally threw them... Even if they logically knew the tuning scale of the instrument was still the same, relatively speaking (Solo in A, D F or whatever), the subconscious brain/body conditioning was too powerful to override.

As for alternate tunings or different setups like half-valving: forget it! Probably 99% of chromatic players ONLY play Solo tuned fully-valved chromatics in C. To a significant number, it's actually seen as 'cheating' to do anything else... Which I find quite bizarre.

I've discussed this in the past on the chromatic chat group Slidemeister, and had some some feisty back and forth there. Slim Heilpern in particular is a very good arguer for the benefits of playing just one tuning in one key: mainly that you get to know it inside out. Howard Levy has taken the same approach on Richter diatonic. Their approach is: regardless of the obvious limitations and shortcomings of the operating system, just stick with it, work hard, and uncover every little nugget of value in there.

I respect that! However, for better or worse, I'm not wired that way. If I see a technical hurdle that can easily be overcome by modifying the tool you're using to overcome it, then I'll modify immediately! Of course where harps are concerned, that means going back a step and unlearning/relearning many licks, patterns etc. That's uncomfortable and time consuming for sure - but also mentally stimulating, because you're breaking new ground, playing cool sounds/phrases that are impossible on stock harps, and evolving your own unique style. I've been through that process several times in my career changing from one main tuning to another, and am currently doing it again: teaching myself a whole new harmonica operating system. Aaargh...! 🥴 But it's fun

Sorry Dominick, I'll stop now! I didn't mean to hijack your thread on making an 1847 SlipSlider with all this philosophical rambling. Looking forward to the next update on your prototype.

[FingerSinger]

Interesting insights Dom and Brendan, I'd say keep them coming!

Maybe just to share another view on alternative tunings - I play mostly irish trad / old time on harmonica and occasionally blues, and while I see that some alternative tunings open up some possibilities, I guess the biggest stopper for me is that they kind of move me away from the 'trad' sound.

For example, in irish trad the little triplet on 6-7 holes where pattern is reversed sounds very traditional. Concertina players do it all the time. Change your tuning to PowerBender and it's not there (It's still there on PowerDraw though). You'll have another triplet, but it will sound 'different'.
Probably there're more examples of this but I just can't think of them in a moment.
I'd argue that it's kind of the same for blues - like warble on draw 4-5, for example, or any blow bends in the higher part of the harmonica.

So, while PowerBender / PowerDraw tunings do indeed give you more expression / bends, for me these bends sound less 'traditional' (it's most probable because I'm just not used to the sound).

2 exceptions for me are Paddy Richter and Country tuning, cause they don't really change the sound that much. But then again - because I'm playing mostly irish I don't really see many 'problems' I'd like to solve with alternative tunings.

Hm, now I think probably I need to share some thoughts on Anglo concertina-inspired Richter tuning alteration I used on one of my harmonicas

[triona]

That is exactly the same what I have experienced over decades. And I always found it quite bizarre too. I always considered those people as "concrete-minded puristic fundamentalists". But most of them consider me as a quirky outsider not to be taken serious anyway.

As far as it is concerning myself, I did try many types of harmonica and quite some different tunings right from my beginning to play the harmonica. There were not as many available the time I started with the harmonica. But as soon as I happened to get hold of any new one, I immediately gave it a try at least. I did not adapt all of them to my further playing. Some of them even went into any drawer and got forgotten there. But most of those forgotten instruments were remembered to some day - sometimes even decades later - and I started to love them on the second try.

This is how it came to from the very beginning that I was used to adjust quite soon and more or less easily to each new instrument, which I found useful for my music from any point of view at the first try. Some of these experiences even opened me the one or the other door to new sounds, ideas, styles and genres which I never had tried to play before.

The downside is that sometimes I do not take enough time to practice, diligence and patience till I can play each single note as accurate and precise as some poeple expect. So some sensitive ears sometimes are irritated when the one or the other chord or bend might not sound as pure as they expect - especially when I am playing very fast. This is a critique I hear sometimes. And I must admit, that it is true. But I try my best to improve this. But it always takes its time with me.

Another downside is that this problem is inherent to a larger flexibility in playing more different types of instruments and tunings, as well as it is to multi-instrumentalists in common. The more you try to learn and actually to play, the less time is remaining for each one to practice sufficiently to reach perfection or at least an acceptable level which can satisfy and make joy to oneself.

The latter you confirmed as well as far as it is concerning the larger consumption of time and efforts. The other is a thing that one can not say about you. You are just the better harmonica player. And you are a professional. And I guess you are practicing a lot more since ever and currently, than it ever has been possible to me as a hobbyist, playing music besides hard working in factories, construction, traffic and shops all my life all day long.

In the harmonica world as far as I can survey it you are widely admired for being a top musician and harmonica player. (You know it already. ) And you are widely respected as an ingenious inventor as well. But as it comes to actually play your instruments, the large majority of your admirers by words would not even give your inventions just a mere try.


All in all: As a matter of fact, both of us and a couple of people gathered in this forum and writing and discussing here too, seem to be a quite small minority among the plenty of all harmonica players - be them profs or amateurs, perfect virtuosos or merely beginners. Just my 2 cents.


dear greetings
triona

[Brendan]

Oh dear Ramon and Triona, you're joining me on this tangential discussion somewhat off topic to Dominick's thread. I hope he doesn't mind! I'll try not to waffle on too much more, but just to answer a couple of your points:

RAMON: you're right, for traditional Irish tunes, Solo, Easy Third, Paddy-Richter, Paddy-Solo are better than PowerBender for sure. I'd say Solo is overall the best, although I use Paddy-Solo. But all of these tunings are even better on a Slide-Diatonic version, if you want more decorations. Have you tried that, or semitone down slide?

TRIONA: yes, we here are very much a tiny minority in the harmonica scene - but we enjoy ourselves talking about all this niche stuff anyway Sadly you're wrong about me on practice: I don't practice nearly enough, because I spend so much time on design and making stuff in the workshop. But that's a passion that gives pleasure as much as playing (although in a different way), so whatever!

TBH I gradually lost interest in playing harmonica in the past 10 years out of frustration with its limitations, especially with bending notes. But with my current X-Harp project I'm trying to overcome them, no matter how crazy the end result of the construction and tuning scheme turns out. Thankfully, after a lot of trying wildly different directions, I'm starting at last to make some prototypes that are at least half playable. Even though they require a big learning curve to understand how to play, their new possibilities are starting to give me that buzz to practice again

That's a cool thing about creating a new instrument, as Dom is doing here with his 1847 SlipSlider, or Edvin with his ingenious tunings: you get a lot of fresh new sonic territory to explore! That's stimulating and fun in a special way that the Richter/Solo purists self-limit themselves from experiencing. But each to their own

[dominico]

Small update on the Slipslider.

I decided to get some standard Richter reedplates to really show off the abilities of the Slipslider.

Playing first position blues only really shows off the blow bend to get the flat three, and since I'm completely unfamiliar with the feel of first position in a minor context I didn't think I was doing it justice.

I play a much better Third position, so I'll be able to show off in all three octaves some nice 3rd position bends when the standard reedplates arrive.

In the meantime maybe I could use some advice on indexing back to the center when allowing both slide right and slide left.

I can slide all the way to the right or left without much issue, however trying to land back in the center is rough going. If i'm off even by a little bit the draw reeds buzz as they slap against the comb.

I came up with a bit of a "hack" for the time being where I can force only allowing slide-right OR slide-left by a coverplate insert that also acts as a stop wall on the side it is inserted. Insert it on the left and it only allows slide-right. Insert it on the right and it only allows slide left. Ideally I could come up with a better system where I can snap left, right, or center without issue.

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