Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

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Brewerpaul
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Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by Brewerpaul » Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:51 pm

I have a Paddy tuned Seydel low D and a paddy tuned Easttop G diatonic. I'd like to get an Easttop Forerunner chromatic to take to sessions, but only want to buy one, to take to sessions. I have two C chromatics, one with the slide flipped, but neither are good for tunes in D, G, or associated keys.

Would I be better off getting a D chromatic and learning to play G tunes on it, or vice versa? Flip the slide or not?

This harmonica comes in just about any key, so I could get a D#(Eb) and reverse the slide to have a D/C# which would let me play cuts and similar ornaments by pushing in the button and having the note go down, rather than up. Am I thinking of this correctly?

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Brendan
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by Brendan » Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:49 am

There are several ways of using a single slide harmonica for playing in keys D & G for Irish music. This post could come under the category of "Too Much Information!", but it's something I've thought about a lot - so here are some ideas to mull over:

FLIPPED SLIDER SOUND
Using a D chrom to play in D & G is better for Irish music than using a G. In my experience, trad tunes lay better for both keys on the D.

In my opinion the Forerunner will be too airy and quiet for Irish sessions. You'd be better off using a valved chromatic, like a Hohner CX-12, Hohner 270, Suzuki SCX-48 or some other brand that comes in low D.

If you want a flipped-slide sound, you could retune all the slider notes down two semitones. It's not that difficult.

Or, if you prefer not to, try this: buy two Hohner 270s in Low C and Low D. Swap the lower reedplate from the Low C onto the comb of the Low D. That way you will have D/C# without flipping the slide.

BEBOP TUNING
The tricky part in playing in G on a D chrom for Irish music is in the hole 4/8 area, where you're missing the 4th of the G scale (the C natural) with the slide out

A good way to get both keys more evenly balanced is to tune the harmonica to Bebop Tuning. That means retuning the left-hand D blow note down to C. Here's the slide-out scale in D (blow notes to the left):

DE. F#G. AB. CC#. DE. F#G. AB. CC#. DE. F#G. AB. CC#

This way you have both full D and G scales with the slide out. If using flipped-slide sound, you can retune the draw slider note in hole 4/8 to D to retain a D note in holes 4/8.

SLIDE-DIATONIC SOUND: Slide Up
Assuming you use a Bebop tuned chrom in D, instead of the slider going to the semitone below, you could make it a Slide-Diatonic. This would allow you to buy a single chrom in Low D and raise some slider notes.

Doing this will give you a good sound for Irish music and lots of enharmonic notes to help play tricky phrases. Here's the scale:

Code: Select all

SLIDE OUT  D. E. F#. G. A. B. C. C#. D
SLIDE IN.  E. F#. G. A. B. C. D. D. E
If you half-valve it you can bend a lot of the draw reeds to get the missing chromatic notes.

SLIDE-DIATONIC SOUND: Slide Down
Alternatively you could keep the flipped slide approach but retune some of the slider notes lower for a more authentic traditional sound. Here's the scale I'd suggest for Bebop Tuning:

Code: Select all

SLIDE OUT  D. E. F#. G. A. B. C. C#. D
SLIDE IN. C#. D. E. F#. G. A. B. C. C#
Lots of enharmonics, for the good reasons mentioned above, and it can be half-valved for draw bends.

IRISH SESSION HARP
An entirely different approach is to make a slide harmonica with two equal keys in Solo Tuning, D and G, located in the same place on each reedplate and selected by a slide without a spring. I made these for a while under the name The Irish Session Harp:

Code: Select all

SLIDE OUT:  DE. F#G. AB. DC#. DE. etc
SLIDE IN:   GA. BC. DE. GF#. GA. etc
You can buy the same thing now from Seydel under the name The Sampler, in different keys.

This is an easy way to play in the home keys of D and G without having to relearn all the G tunes with different breathing patterns.

Too much information? Haha... I could go on, but that's enough for now...

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Brendan
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by Brendan » Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:34 am

Another interesting alternative is to make your own Irish Session Harp from a Low D chromatic. You can keep both keys in Solo Tuning by displacing the D and G scales. This works on both straight and cross tuned chromatics.

Here's how it would look:

Code: Select all

SLIDE OUT: DE. F#G. AB. DC#. DE. F#G. AB. DC#. DE etc
SLIDE IN:  DE. GF#. GA. BC. DE. GF#. GA. BC. DE. etc
The G scale proper starts on hole 3, but it goes down to the D below. This is a nice solution to adapt one chrom for two widely separated keys without too extreme retuning.

Joel Andersson made himself a slide harp like this, but in Easy Third. Besides the two keys in one harp, he likes the fact that he has the alternate C/C# notes close together, as in some tunes these alternatives crop up: you might occasionally get a C natural in a D tune, or a C# in a G tune.

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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by EdvinW » Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:58 am

Brendan wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:49 am
This post could come under the category of "Too Much Information!"
As long as it concerns harmonicas, there's no such thing :P
FLIPPED SLIDER SOUND
Using a D chrom to play in D & G is better for Irish music than using a G. In my experience, trad tunes lay better for both keys on the D.
I'm a little late on this post, but is this true for flat-slide chroms? If you want to play in both G and D on one single, normal, sharp-slide, chromatic, D is surely the better key.

With a flat slide, the C note that you need in the key of G becomes awkward on a D harp. Playing in the key of D on a flat-slide G chromatic, at least the slide note (C#) is directly under the root note.

I don't play these myself, but IF you want to play the two keys on a single standard tuned chromatic, I'm not even sure the flipped side is your bes option. A normal sharp slide chrom in D might be better. Could Brendan or someone else with actual standard-tuned chrom experience comment on this?


IF on the other hand you're up for a little retuning, the Bebop tuning in the key of D that Brendan mentions might be a better idea. Either with a flat slide or as a slide diatonic.

The former would be an easier retune, and you could start from an C# chromatic. The plates would come tuned to C# and D, so turning the slide gets you a D flat slide. Now there are 3 notes you'd need to change to get the Bebop tuning slide out, and another 3 if you want to alter the slide in note.

This would be a chromatic instrument, capable of playing other keys if you find yourself in a jam (pun intended!).

If you like the sound of the slide diatonic, especially if you want to play it half valved, and don't mind retuning, the slide diatonic is of course also an option.
Edvin Wedin

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IaNerd
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by IaNerd » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:15 pm

I hope not to muddy the water here. I found a list of about 700 Irish tunes. From this list, I ascertained the following. They are clustered and subtotaled by their parent major scales.

D Major 202
E Dorian 62
A Mixolydian 22
B Minor 8
total = 294
-------- --------
G Major 190
A Dorian 69
D Mixolydian 61
E Minor 13
total = 333
-------- --------
A Major 23
B Dorian 3
F# Minor 2
total = 28
-------- --------
F Major 4
G Dorian 3
D Minor 1
D Aeolian 1
total = 9
-------- --------
C Major 3
D Dorian 8
G Mixolydian 8
total = 19
-------- --------
E Major 1
-------- --------
F Mixolydian 1
-------- --------
G Minor 1

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IaNerd
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by IaNerd » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:41 pm

In the link below, the second retuning moves a C Major Solo harp to D Major Inverted Bebop. This harp also has a G Major scale without using the slider or bending. Both of these major scales remain fully chromatic with use of the slider, whether it be sharp- or flat-slide.

https://brendan-power.com/forum/viewtop ... ebop#p2641
Last edited by IaNerd on Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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IaNerd
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by IaNerd » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:49 pm

If we take the D Major Inverse Bebop re-tuning of the post just above ...

“C”__E__G __B (The additional "Bebop" note is in quotes.)
_D__F#_A __C#

and give it a slide-in layer that is Slide-Up Slide Diatonic ...

“D”_F#_A__C# (The additional "Bebop" note is in quotes.)
_E__G__B__D

then this new layer is essentially a same-phase E Dorian mode to the slide-in layer's D Major mode. It also affords -- for Irish music -- arguably nicer ornamentation to the D Major’s notes.

And thanks to those extra "Bebop" notes, the slide-out layer can be played (with a somewhat less intuitive breath pattern) as G Major without need of the slider or bending.

But what about ornamentation of the slide-out layer’s G Major scale? It turns out that six of the seven diatonic notes of the G Major scale still have that “ideal” Slide Diatonic ornamentation – the exception being the G Major’s third note. The slider would raise its B to a C# instead of the preferred C.

Brendan Power's YT video on his Slide Diatonic concept: https://youtu.be/iGkbVG1sBXQ
Last edited by IaNerd on Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Brewerpaul
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by Brewerpaul » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:40 pm

Ha ha! You guys are getting 'WAY too complex for my purposes. I didn't want to retune reeds or spend big bucks buying a custom-tuned harmonica.
My Forerunner 2.0 in Db arrived yesterday. I liked it right out of the box. It comes with a very nice zipped carrying case and microfiber cleaning cloth. The harmonica plays easily with the button in or out.
I had to do a bit of surgery to flip the slide which I don't recall having to do on my Hohner C. The slide on the Forerunner has only one tiny hole to engage the slide spring, so merely flipping it over doesn't work. I needed to drill a second hole to accommodate the spring in the flipped position. Luckily, my other hobbies have provided me with the tools and skills to do this neatly and accurately and the flip was a complete success. Now, with the button out, I can play in D and get the ornaments dropped down a half step with a push of the button. Next up is to train myself to play tunes in G on this critter. It's very awkward so far but seems doable with a bit of practice.

mr grouchy
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Re: Chromatic for Irish-- there can be only one! (For me at least)

Post by mr grouchy » Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:49 pm

if I retune the D reed plate to Bebop tuning in my chromatic D/C# (slide out) then I also will need to retune the C# reed plate? I’m new to altered tunings (and to retuning) and appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

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