Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Anything apart from the two mainstream default harmonicas (Solo-tuned fully-valved chromatic, and un-valved Richter 10-hole diatonic). Alternate tunings, different construction, new functionality, interesting old designs, wishful-thinking... whatever!
Post Reply
User avatar
dominico
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:31 am

Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by dominico » Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:47 am

While retuning my Trochilus in A to Wilde Tuning, I thought, rather than creating a typical chromatic, maybe I should create a "slide diatonic" tuning where the slide-in functions pretty much exclusively as auxiliary enharmonics and bends that would not normally be present on a typical diatonic.

For the "Wilde Slide" tuning I wanted to keep the auxiliary enharmonics in the spirit of the original Wilde Tuning, being a second position major/minor pentatonic deep bending monster; flexibility in other positions is compromised in order to make 2nd position as powerful as possible for-blues and rock style playing.

So I spent a couple hours and quite a bit of blu-tak (and a slight bit of engraver work) to convert slide-out to a Wilde Tuning in A, and then with the slide-in, I figured maybe it should drop the draw note to the next lowest minor pentatonic note, and have it be able to bend all the way down to the next lowest minor pentatonic note after that.
wildeslide.PNG
wildeslide.PNG (61.87 KiB) Viewed 264 times
But Why?
On the surface you might think that this tuning looks insane.
Immediately you need to forget the idea tha the slider will raise or lower a note by a semitone or even by a consistent number of semitones.
It makes more sense if you focus on what each of the slide-in draw notes are, and what they bend down to.
Remember these are meant to be auxiliary enharmonics to the main slide-out tuning.

The idea is that you would do most of your playing with the slide out; it functions as a standard Wilde Tuned diatonic, but you can slide in to get effects and other sounds that would normally be missing.

What do I get?
WIth the slide in I can bend from any minor pentatonic note up or down to the next note, with the exception of the 5 to th flat 7, I get flat 6 to flat 7 instead.
Also with the slide in I get the flat 7 as a natural draw note in every octave, I get the flat 3, and the 4 as natural draw notes in every octave as well.
I can bend the flat 3 up to the 4 or all the way down to the root. I can bend the 4 all the way up to the 5, the flat 6 to the flat 7 and the flat 7 up to the root).

Some happy accidents are that now the flat 6 is available as a bottom bend, and the major 7 and major 2 are available as natural blow notes.

Another happy accident is that a lot of my all-draw Wilde-tuning licks work the same with the slide in, but give a different sound because they are hitting different scale degrees and bends. Its cool!

Having a slide is another thing I have to get used to working into my playing, but I have a feeling that once I get used to it, its going to be a lot of fun for tracking stuff like Angus Young or Slash guitar solos.

What else?
I imagine the same thing can be done for any tuning. Or even with the same tuning but choosing different types of auxiliary enharmonics for different styles of music: emphasizing chords, flexibility of different posiitions, switching between major and minor versions of the same tuning, etc.

I played with another version of holes 3 and 7 where the natural draw was an A instead of a Bb, this basically gave me a built in "Easy Third" as well by just going slide-in for holes 2, 3 and 6, 7. But in 2nd position it caused me some awkward moments where I would hit a major 2nd or major 3rd over a minor chord, so I changed it to a Bb.
20240421_201013.jpg
20240421_201013.jpg (322.83 KiB) Viewed 264 times
Last edited by dominico on Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

FingerSinger
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:14 am

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by FingerSinger » Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:34 am

Interesting idea Dom, i’m waiting for my Game Changer to arrive and i planned to do a similar thing

i want to retune some of the slide notes to “Eddie Clarke” semitone down ones, but for others i might do something different to give me missing notes or enharmonic notes instead.
Will post when i have some results

User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by Brendan » Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:07 am

Good logic for your tuning scheme, Dominick. It makes perfect sense to me - although I won't be surprised if you tweak it a bit after you start playing the tuning regularly.

The Slide-Diatonic concept can be used in many different ways to give extra notes/bends and alternative bend-enharmonics for the primary notes, and it works well in any tuning. I invented it back in the 1980s, and the first track recorded with a Slide-Diatonic harmonica was "The Rights of Man", on my 1990 album 'State of the Harp'.
https://www.brendan-power.com/StateOfTheHarp.php

I've used Slide-Diatonics on many albums since, in various tunings. It's used extensively on my 1994 album 'New Irish Harmonica', in both PowerChromatic and Paddy Richter tunings - as you can hear on these clips:
https://www.brendan-power.com/NewIrishHarmonica.php

On the half-valved Slide-Diatonics I use for Irish music, you get a kind of mirror image of the main scale: the blow/draw pattern is reversed with the slide in. As well as the obvious use for slide decorations, I've long been using it to get the missing chromatic notes as slide-in draw bends, as well as get a different flavour on some primary notes.

Here's an example playing 'The Sligo Maid' on a G Slide-Diatonic in PaddySolo tuning. In the second part I'm playing the B, a slide-out blow note, as a draw slide-in with a bend up - to give it extra soul. You can hear it after about 2:20:
https://youtu.be/JdWGJf_rfE8?si=mvGmFlF1ezZAdrmq

And here on 'The Peacock's Feather' I'm using a draw bend on the slide-in D note to get the missing C# in the B parts (from 0:35):
https://youtu.be/BEheDB6Rz_c?si=CTIfzo3xVkadwriK

My AsiaBend harmonica is essentially a specialist form of Slide-Diatonic, where all the primary draw notes can be played as slide-in bend-enharmonics, and vice-versa. It's one of my favourite creations! Here's an introduction:
https://youtu.be/PWpeIwjCvoM?si=OOBzdBhAiG2JI2Nu

Once you start thinking along these lines, the possibilities multiply exponentially! Slide up or down, there are so many good options available. For anyone wedded to a certain tuning scale (eg. Solo or Richter), retuning a slide harmonica creatively to make a Slide-Diatonic that addresses its weak points is a good approach.

I created a special tuned slide-down half-valved Slide-Diatonic for the brilliant young Indian player Shubhranill Sarkar, to allow him to get authentic Raga decorations as well as diatonic-type bends in Solo tuning. Here are a couple of videos where he's playing it:

https://youtu.be/mrAG3CApo7o?si=Qe5EYiDDLwAK4T6d
https://youtu.be/_wAlBAwpdw0?si=9XRfJZ_oDcZpZIay

Your Wilde Slide-Diatonic tuning is a cool new take on this concept, Dom! I look forward to hearing how it sounds once you get used to it 🙂

User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by Brendan » Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:48 am

BLU TACK vs SOLDER
Gosh, you've certainly gone to town on the Blu Tack Dom! It works... but it's unnecessary to use it on such an extensive retune unless, you want to reverse/change the tuning quickly.

If you decide you like the tuning scale and want to keep it, I suggest remove all the Blu Tack and redo the retune using solder. The phosphor bronze reeds used by Chinese manufacturers take it well! It will look much neater and there'll be no worries about it getting knocked or nudged out of position when working on the harp.

Also, it's a much faster job 👍

User avatar
IaNerd
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:42 pm
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by IaNerd » Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:01 am

I understand and applaud your approach. I was musing on something similar here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=667&p=3922#p2906

And also here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=876

User avatar
IaNerd
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:42 pm
Location: Iowa, USA

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by IaNerd » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:56 pm

You might consider a Lee Oskar tuning called "Seventh Son". In that tuning, the 1 blow is lowered by two semitones while the 1 draw is raised by three semitones. These changes provide dominant sevenths for (in second position) the I chord and the IV chord. This also affords some super-deep draw-bending on that hole.

User avatar
dominico
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:31 am

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by dominico » Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:44 pm

IaNerd wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 11:01 am

And also here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=876
It looks like we landed on nearly the same slide tuning for the first 5 holes of richter :-)

The cool thing with these newer cheaper, smaller chromatics is that these tunings now become a lot more practical.

To Brendan's point I've been playing with it for a couple of days now and it makes some very cool sounds, (that bend from the 4 down to the flat 3 sounds so cool when put in the right place) but yes there are some tweaks I want to make to it before I settle in on a "rock guitar" slide tuning. For starters I'm going to try it where the slide jumps up to the next minor pentatonic scale note rather than down. I think I can get some better interval jumps that way, and I might try to sneak an extra root note or two in here somewhere.

User avatar
dominico
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:31 am

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by dominico » Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:47 pm

One thing that occurred to me yesterday is that you can get very similar, but not quite the same bending enharmonic effects by either tuning the slide-in to the same tuning, but a whole step down, or the same tuning but a fifth up. Since both of those keys are closely related to the home key of the slide-out tuning they give you a lot of bendable enharmonics.

Slide-in One whole step Down
Pros:
  • The slide in note is another completely useful diatonic harmonica, in a nearly related key
  • The 2nd position 4, flat 7 and major 2 are now all accessible as nice draw bends with the slide in
  • The home key is playable in 1st position with the slide out and as 3rd position with the slide in.
  • With a bit of use of the slide, the blues scales are easily accessible in 4 keys (F C G D) as mostly draw and draw bends.
whole_step_down.JPG
whole_step_down.JPG (67.68 KiB) Viewed 186 times
Slide-in One Fourth Up (or Down)
Pros:
  • The slide in note is another completely useful diatonic harmonica, in a nearly related key
  • The 2nd position 4 is now accessible as nice draw that bends all the way down to the flat 3 with the slide in
  • The home key is playable in 1st position with the slide out and as 2nd position with the slide in.
  • You can switch between 2nd and 3rd position in the same key with use of the slide.
  • By mixing 2nd and 3rd you can get some very quick interval jumps that would normally require a lot of head movement
  • With a bit of use of the slide, the blues scales are easily accessible in 3 keys (C G D) as mostly draw and draw bends.
one_fourth_.JPG
one_fourth_.JPG (66.04 KiB) Viewed 186 times

User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by Brendan » Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:11 pm

Nice ideas 👍

The C/F combo certainly is good for enabling easy wide interval leaps with the slider. However, I wonder how easy it would be to jump around when you're aiming for a draw bendable enharmonic of a blow reed on the C harp.

For example, this one:

The 2nd position 4 is now accessible as nice draw that bends all the way down to the flat 3 with the slide in.

Whilst in the flow of your 2nd position playing on the C scale, you'd have to jump down two holes from the 4 slide-out to the 2 slide-in to get that draw bend on the C note. And then immediately jump back to the G blues riff it was part of, on the C slide-out scale.

I'm getting a headache trying to visualise that! No doubt with practice it would get easier though, and the easy wide intervals are a good incentive.

User avatar
triona
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:24 pm
Location: Aue / Germany

Re: Slide Diatonic tuning ideas for blues and rock: "Wilde Slide" Tuning

Post by triona » Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:47 pm

Very interesting ideas indeed. But a little bit too complicated for me to follow at first sight. I must think about this in a quiet hour one more time. :lol:

But as far as this:
dominico wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:47 pm
Slide-in One Fourth Up (or Down)
I am experimenting with this idea since several years.
For it does not hit exactly the subject of this thread I posted it here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=955


dear greetings
triona
Aw, Thou beloved, do hearken to the Banshee's lonely croon!
sinn féin - ça ira !
Cad é sin do'n té sin nach mbaineann sin dó


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1yI3H ... 9ktgzTR2qg

Post Reply