Ideas for changing a diatonic harp tuning on the fly

[dominico]

So far the most workable idea seems to be to fit 2 reeds in one hole somehow (maybe with some extension of the reed plate under the coverplates) and then block one of two reeds with some switch.

If you could get two draw reeds per hole in the size of a 10 hole diatonic (ala Sub30 or something like that) and then have a slider, reedplate slider or some other mechanism to switch which reed is the active reed, that would definitely achieve the overall goal here I think.

Since I don't know how to cram extra reeds into one hole without manufacturing my own reedplates, repurposing a Sub 30, or converting a 12 hole Solist pro to a 10 holer with custom comb, I'm left with trying to get something like the Turboslide magnets to lower the pitch of the draw reeds.

I printed something similar to an overvalve plate just to act like a spacer between the turboslide magnets and draw reeds, for a dirty prototype.

turbodrawdo.jpg (181.07 KiB) Viewed 4285 times

It works, at least well enough to prove out the concept. I'm travelling this week, but when I get back home I'll wind up drawing up and printing my own "draw side" turboslide slider and a more polished version of my reedplate spacer. It should give me the ability to switch to Easy Third whenever I want.

[Brendan]

Here's a practical idea for quickly changing between harmonica tunings in the same harp, which I've been using for a long time. However, I don't know if it qualifies as "on the fly". If that means within the same song whilst playing, then not! But if it means to switch tunings between songs, it could qualify with an extra tweak.

Way waaaay back, not long after I first started playing in New Zealand in 1976, I started modifying my harps. Initially just retuning reeds, then in about 1979 creating my first 11-hole "Stretch-Harps", with Regular Breath Tuning. To assist with both retuning and the harmonica size extension, I found that the picture-hanging putty Blu Tack was very helpful! Here's a bit of info and a photo of how I used it in those early days:

https://www.brendan-power.com/harpgeeks.php#Blu-Tack

It's such an effective product that it's still popular today, 45 years later! Once stuck on a reed, Blu Tack stays there indefinitely until you want to remove it; in which case, just scrape it off. I soon realised this could allow me to have harps with different tunings. For example, if you tune the 5 draw on a C Richter harp up from F to F# (the major seventh in 2nd Position, for Country Tuning), then stick on some Blu Tack to take it back down to the F, you now have the correct amount of reed-end weight to switch between the two tunings. Simply stick the small blob of Blu Tack on the rivet pad when you want the F#, and replace it on the reed tip when you want the F. Amazingly, this can be done repeatedly - seemingly as often as you want! (maybe eventually it will need refreshing with a new blob, but I never reached that point).

This could apply anywhere else on the harp, including the 3 blow for the Richter/Paddy-Richter switch.

Since the amount is correct for good tuning, the Blu Tack switch only takes seconds to swap over - easily possible between songs on a gig. The time limiting factor is the coverplate removal/replacement. However, if you swapped out the coverplate screws with magnets, that would be instant. With the strong small neodymium magnets we have these days, this is pretty easy to achieve.

My SlipSlider harps have cover magnets. You can see a photo of various models with magnets in the covers at 2:30 in this video:

https://youtu.be/2vdm9_RmFnU?si=A0PyLwDtGkObtIwH

So Dominick... A combination of Blu Tack on the reeds with magnetically-attached covers should give you a pretty effective way of changing between tunings in 10 seconds or so, on the same harp. It's not exactly instant "on the fly" between licks, but certainly usable for situations where you want a particular tuning for a song and don't want to carry two harps.

[FingerSinger]

...
It's such an effective product that it's still popular today, 45 years later! Once stuck on a reed, Blu Tack stays there indefinitely until you want to remove it; in which case, just scrape it off. I soon realised this could allow me to have harps with different tunings. For example, if you tune the 5 draw on a C Richter harp up from F to F# (the major seventh in 2nd Position, for Country Tuning), then stick on some Blu Tack to take it back down to the F, you now have the correct amount of reed-end weight to switch between the two tunings. Simply stick the small blob of Blu Tack on the rivet pad when you want the F#, and replace it on the reed tip when you want the F. Amazingly, this can be done repeatedly - seemingly as often as you want! (maybe eventually it will need refreshing with a new blob, but I never reached that point).
...

Brendan, I remember that exactly this idea pushed me to start thinking about these 'harp levers' on harmonica - I've tried retuning with Blu Tack and it was indeed very easy and (almost) instant!

What I see is also my needs and dominico needs are different - I want to specifically be able to change tuning of separate reeds, exactly like 'irish harp' players do.

I was going to try some reedplate extension so I can install 2 reeds and switch between them but now all these talks gave me some more information to think about, I might have another idea on how to achieve what I want. I'll definitely report on results

Best,
Roman

[Brendan]

Here's another idea for true "on the fly" instant tuning swaps whilst playing, which Dominick is really after. It involves adding an extra reed to the appropriate comb chamber (hole 3 in his case, to swap between Richter and Paddy-Richter - G and A on a C harp), then add a muting mechanism - basically a variation on what Roman proposed earlier.

It's not simple, but for a trained engineer like Dominick with good machine tools, it should be achievable. I haven't done it myself, but here's how I picture the process:

First, widen the comb chamber behind the mouthpiece so an extra reed beside the existing 3 blow reed can be added. With Dominick's design and 3d printing skills, this will be easy - but it could be done by anyone through modifying an existing comb. Then, instead of cutting a new precision reed slot in the existing reedplate (which would be tricky and time-consuming), simply cut a relief slot about 3.5mm wide, at least 1.5mm to the left or right adjacent to the 3 blow slot. This is best done with a small milling machine, but could be achieved with Dremel-type hand tools - or even a fret saw.

Then, from another reedplate, cut out a small single modular reedplate with the correct reed pitch (the A reed on a C harp). Stick the modular reedplate to the main reedplate directly above the relief slot described above, being careful not to encroach over the existing G blow slot.

An easy way to do this is using Blu Tack, as I did back on my old 11-hole Stretch-Harps (as shown/described in the previous post). It will give a perfectly airtight seal and last indefinitely. Another easy way is to follow what they do in accordions, and use wax to seal/holed the reedplate on. Or it could be secured with a thin gasket and a couple of screws.

Now comes the hard bit...! I haven't thought through exactly how to do this, but hopefully Dominick's engineering brain will come up with a good mechanism. Some kind of instant selective reed muting system to swap between the G and the A note is needed. Possibly spring-loaded mutes mounted directly above the reeds with buttons in the top cover?

However it's tricky, because one reed is higher than the other...

If it were possible to cut an accurate reed slot in the existing reedplate to attach the A blow reed, then a slider mounted on the reedplate pushed from the right could be used to selectively mute the two reeds. That would probably be the most elegant solution, but it requires accurate slot cutting to retain good sound on the inserted reed.

It's not easy, but definitely achievable

Trying to extend the idea to several reeds as Roman wants (presumably blow and draw?) is another level of difficulty altogether. In that case, I think just get a chromatic and retune reeds as appropriate: much simpler!

[FingerSinger]

Brendan, you're describing almost exactly the idea which I was thinking about for a while already (after I had a chat with you on FB).

I was thinking if it's possible to do it without modifying the comb though - I have very nice combs from JA which I really want to continue using. Also, I didn't make the measurements of the comb / reed width yet, so I assumed that squeezing 2 reeds into one hole might be tricky even with widening the slot in the comb.

So one of the ideas I had is to remove reed completely, widen the slot in the reedplate. Then cut out 2 modular reeds out of separate reedplate(s) and put them on top of the widened slot, with some elevation in between, so basically these reeds have a separate chamber above the reedplate. I was thinking that I could even use 'double' modular reed plate which I could cut out of some chromatic harmonica reedplate.

And then, use some switch muting mechanism which selectively mutes one of the reeds.

The problem with my idea might be that reeds are going to start hitting the coverplates though, so maybe modification of the comb is really needed anyway.

It's quite a project though, I didn't even got to the part of prototyping yet.

[Brendan]

Using a segment of a chromatic harmonica reedplate as your modular reed insert is a good idea Roman. One reed will need to be swapped over from draw to blow or vice versa, but it means both reeds will be on the same plane. That should make selective muting easier, although I still can't visualise a good mechanism.

This is a tough challenge you and Dominick have set yourselves! To be honest, I think you should consider re-examining your initial requirement that it has to happen on a diatonic harmonica.

Using a custom-tuned chromatic would be SO much easier! The extra reeds and the selection mechanism are ready made. Plus if you half-valve it, it will sound and respond very much like a diatonic.

Ok it's a bit bigger, but if you weigh that against how difficult it would be to achieve what you're after by modifying standard 10 hole harps, it's no contest. At least you could be happily playing and switching between tunings right away, to explore the musical aspect of your ideas. Then if some easy option appears to transfer the principle to diatonic harps, you'll be able to apply all that playing experience to the smaller format.

This might sound like a cop-out, but personally I like the many new custom possibilities opened up by having the extra reeds and slider mechanism of chromatics available. I find the Hohner CX12 and recent Chinese models from Kongsheng and Easttop using the same design concept are good ones to use as a platform for modification.

Also, a new Chinese 10-hole chromatic has appeared called the Trochilus, which comes in Solo, Richter and Paddy-Richter tuning. It has a slimmer comb and tapered rear to make it feel closer to a diatonic in size. It could be a good compromise harp for you guys to consider for your ideas. Heres a pic:

https://images.app.goo.gl/CS8bEftxLdN6qDJ57

[triona]

Marketed by TEMU?
There are some serious warnings against TEMU, concerning excessive data grabbing and commercial abuse and even fraud.


dear greetings
triona

[FingerSinger]

I was going to try this new harp! I prefer flat sliders though so i can play Eddie Clarke / Mick Kinsella style
But probably can retune it fairly easily.

Regarding TEMU, you don’t have to buy it there, as far as i know it is also sold by bushman (under Game Changer name) in US and i have seen some serious people reviewing it (Winslow for example), it seems to be a decent product at least.

[triona]

Regarding TEMU, you don’t have to buy it there, as far as i know it is also sold by bushman (under Game Changer name) in US and i have seen some serious people reviewing it (Winslow for example), it seems to be a decent product at least.

I did not mean the harmonica, which I am not in doubt of.
I just aimed on the "marketplace" TEMU and wanted to warn.
And as long as there are altenatives to buy ...
Sorry if there had been any misunderstanding.


dear greetings
triona

[dominico]

This conversation really went places when I was on vacation!

We were in Amish country, so in the vein of the vacation I was away from technology most of the time. I also learned that the Amish do not even allow themselves musical instruments! That fact surprised me. They only sing, and all their songs come from one 300 year old hymn book, in German.


At any rate, great ideas all around in this thread.

This is a tough challenge you and Dominick have set yourselves! To be honest, I think you should consider re-examining your initial requirement that it has to happen on a diatonic harmonica.

Using a custom-tuned chromatic would be SO much easier! The extra reeds and the selection mechanism are ready made. Plus if you half-valve it, it will sound and respond very much like a diatonic.

I play pretty much exclusively half valved now, I much prefer them to overbends.

I will order a Trochilus/Bushman Gamechanger and see how much bigger it is. And then I will have to retune it!

I just got done retuning another chromatic to Diminished. I find retuning chromatics much more tedious than retuning diatonics, each model seems to put the dlide-in and slide-out reeds in different places. it's nowhere near as easy as a "draw plate" and "blow plate" like diatonics.

But that aside, I agree! The chromatic have the reeds and slider mechanism to fo everything, including all those guitar bends I complained about missing in that other thread. I could convert those to "Super Diatonics" and at about $40 a pop I could fill a case of 12 for the same price as a full set of Lee Oskar's.

But they are so big! Maybe Trochilus will change that, maybe I could figure out a way to take their platform and get it even smaller.

Back to ideas on a diatonic platform:
In a similar vein to Roman, maybe if I could just get a couple more reeds in there I can use a reedplate slider to mute the reeds I'm not using.

I haven't fully given up on a drawplate turboslide either. After playing with it a bit more I think the stability problem has to do with where the magnets are placed over the reeds. I have more design/rapid prototyping freedom than Jim did, hopefully I can whip something up next week. In the meantime, as soon as I got back home today I printed another couple of comb designs I'll be playing with over the weekend.