THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Anything apart from the two mainstream default harmonicas (Solo-tuned fully-valved chromatic, and un-valved Richter 10-hole diatonic). Alternate tunings, different construction, new functionality, interesting old designs, wishful-thinking... whatever!
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THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by drkcostas » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:36 pm

Harmonica is a marvelous little instrument with nice harmonic sound and chords.
The standard Richter-tuning is specializing in playing the Blues, and the chords I, ii, V.
But what if we want a harmonica that is not specializing in any particular type of music and play all the 7 chords of a diatonic scale? ? What would be then the optimal tuning? Here we answer this question IN THE NEXT ARTICLE.
We extend the optimal solution to the harmonic minor and the chromatic version of the Ionian circular mode. (there are 2 ways that we can convert a diatonic scale to chromatic with the slide-sharps: 1) Either by the Ionian mode of the sharped root or 2)The Dorian mode of the flatted root. The latter is more convenient for various reasons as it gives 3M besides 3m and 7M besides 7dim)
Furthermore, we indicate that the slide-button in chromatic harmonicas can be used not only to add flats or sharps but instead to switch the blow and draw property of the same note. This not only balances the inhaling-exhaling breathing but also allows us to convert many blow-bends to draw bends and vice-versa.
Furthermore, we indicate again that the slide-button in chromatic harmonicas can be used not only to add shraps or flats but instead to jump to the next higher octave for each note, as in yodeling-singing or whistles overblowing.

[https://simplerguitarlearning.blogspot. ... ndard.html]
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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by Brendan » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:15 pm

Welcome to the forum Dr. Kostas, and thanks for your interesting first post.

The tuning that appeals the most to me of the ones you show is the first slider version, with the extra E and B major chords with slider pushed in. You say:

"Curiously enough the scale that is produced by sliding the lever is the dorian mode of the B major scale and not the ionian mode of the C# major scale which is very convenient too as we get two quite often used scales and also a chromatic harmonica at the same instrument"

I note also that if the harmonica were half-valved (valve only affects the low-pitched note in each hole), you can use draw bends in the lower octave to get easy C#, E, G# and B major scales with the slide pushed in.

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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by triona » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:34 pm

Do you mean this one?

Seydel calls it "The Irish".
https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel ... rrency=EUR

Image


dear greetings
triona
Aw, Thou beloved, do hearken to the Banshee's lonely croon!
sinn féin - ça ira !
Cad é sin do'n té sin nach mbaineann sin dó


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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by Brendan » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:55 am

It's a bit different, it's this one from his attached file:
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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by drkcostas » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:39 pm

Thank you Brendan for the Remark.
Yes you are right! In particular the Bb major chromatic gives also the A major (dorian mode) by the slide pushed, the F major the E major (dorian mode) by the slide pushed and the C major gives the B major (dorian mode) by the slide pushed.
The only advantage of the standard chromatic tuning is that it is periodic per each octave.
Nevertheless the cost of it is triple in the next sence
1) There is significant loss in chord completness
2) We must reverse blowing drawng at the last notes 7 , 1 of each octave.
3) No draw-blow breath-balance of the notes.
I believe it is better to sucrifice the periodicity per octave and have periodicity per 2 octaves and gain
1) Chord completness
2) no reversing of blow-draw at the last pair of each octave.
3) Because during the minimum of 2 octaves the blow-draw properties of the notes reverse, there is the possibility of breath-balance by shifting the melodic themes to the adjacent octave.
In addition when pressing the slide , uilizing the dorian mode of the flattened root instead of the ionian mode of the sharpened root, we gain two very common additional chords in a diatonic scale (as part of a kind of chromatic tonality) which is the 3major besides the 3minor and 7major besides 7diminsihed


In Greek folk music we use a lot the harmonic (5# of Ionian mode) and double harmonic minor (2#, 5# of Ionian mode) of a diatonic scale. This gives chords that are not the exact chords of the diatonic scale, in other words, instead of only I, ii, iii, IV, V , vi, vii, I' (or in other jazz symbols where M-major m=minor dim=diminished) instead of only 1M, 2m, 3m,4M, 5M, 6m, 7dim, 1M, we use the next chords for such melodies 1M, 2m, 3M7,4M, 5M, 6m, 7M7, 1M. This is also the same in Andean Latin folk music, in Balkan music, Gypsy jazz, etc. I had just ordered a chromatic F major (Ionian mode circular tuning) harmonica with the configuration tool of Seydel company, where we just add a sharp with the slide button, when I realized that if, I did not alter the 3rd and 7nth note that is the notes with one semitone apart next notes (thus no loss of chromatic notes), I could derive the 3M, and 7M chord AT THE RIGHT PLACE were without the slide button it was 3m and 7dim. Then started counting what scale was produced by the slide button pushed and it was the Dorian mode of the flattened root. So .......I ordered one more chromatic F major with this method (and actually also another G major, C major, Bb major etc ) which of course costed to me 314 euro more on the F major, but it was worth spending. In particular the Bb major chromatic gives also the A major (dorian mode) by the slide pushed, the F major the E major (dorian mode) by the slide pushed and the C major gives the B major (dorian mode) by the slide pushed.
Now I have ordered in Seydel a kind of "chromatic" which is not really chromatic but switches bythe slide-button, the blow property of a note to a draw property of the same note and vice versa so that I can play with balanced breath some demanding melodies. I assume that for the lovers of bending this will make many blow-bends to draw bends too. But the chroma-bender or slip-slider I assume is a better idea. Actually I did not have in mind the bending but the balanced breath. I assume your marvelous idea of twin-harmonicas or slip-slider does similar things.

I must say that I am not an experienced harmonica player. I am although an experienced guitar player and I play also many other instruments like Greek Bouzouki, Mandoline-Ukulele, Celtic harp, Violin-Lyra (with frets though..), Irish Whistles, quenas and panflutes. I just started learning harmonica (being at the age of 60) . And the reason that I refused to learn harmonica when I was a student was that it was too much specializing in Blues, and I could play in order the melodies only in the middle. Now that I discovered that you can configure your harmonica the way you want I decided to learn harmonica. There is one only aspect that I do like the Richter tuning: It forces you to play with 2 major chords and one only minor thus forces youtoplay mainly happy music! I realize now that with the Ionian circular tuning the harmonica might have become, the most friendly instrument as friendly as the Celtic harp or Chinese panflude (which is with a single flexible blow pipe in the mouth and at the other end a sliding on a driver blowing-device on all tubes, one each time).For me the Ionian circular tuning has the next advantages.
THE OBVIOUS TO ME ADVANTAGES ARE
0) All types of music can be played, as with the piano. Actually, this tuning occurs in Zamponia panflutes with double rows of tubes.
1) The blow upper row is alternating major-minor 3rds only. Any 3 consecutive notes are a chord of the diatonic scale
2) The draw lower row is alternating major-minor 3rds only. Any 3 consecutive notes are a chord of the diatonic scale
3) The vertical intervals (draw-next hole blow), are only and always intervals of 2nds. You know where to find each note, not because you have played the tuning 50,000 times but because they are in the natural order of their pitch.
4) All the chords of the steps of the diatonic scale 1, 2,3,4,5,6, 7, are playable horizontally. No chord is missing.
5) All the 3 major chords in harmonic chord progression occur in the blows
6) All 3 minor chords in harmonic chord progression occur in the draws.
7) Because the periodicity is not per one octave but per two octaves, all the notes in the first two octaves occur, either as blows or as draws which not only give a balance in the breath but also allows more bends to occur as draw-bends which is easier.
8) The Ionian mode of this circular tuning seems to be more favored by the blows compared to the Myxoliodian mode, because the major chord of the root occurs twice as a blow and only once as a draw.
9) A complete balance of draw and blow breath can be achieved with the chromatic technology, where instead of adding sharps or flats we interchange draw and blow property of the same note (as in the example table in the article of my first post)
10) We may enhance the octaves range by the chromatic harmonica technology, where instead of adding sharps or flats we jump to the next octave whenever we push the button-lever (as in the example table of the article of the first post)
11) The same circular tuning in the Aeolian mode can give tunings with the harmonic minor or also the double harmonic minor scale.(see example in the article of the first post)
12) In the case of chromatic harmonica, the optimal tuning for chord completeness is as in the example , which allows for chords like 3major instead of only 3minor and 7major7 instead of only 7dimished when pushing the slide. In other words besides the full spectrum of 7 chords of the diatonic scale, I ii iii IV V vi vii or 1M, 2m , 3m, 4M 5M ,6m , 7dim , we also have, after utilizing the lever-slide at the steps 3 and 7 , also the chords 3M and 7M. which is a very common requirement in pop, jazz , Latin and other folk , or classical music (e.g. Beethoven moonlight sonata) , which comes from modulating from the natural minor to the harmonic minor and double harmonic minor.

A combined tuning of the Richter and circular , has the chords V, I at the first 3 holes and it is dentical with the Richter in the first 3 holes but it has the Ionian cicular tuning for the rest of the holes from 4 to 10. It has again all the 7 chords of the diatonic scale, and the melodies are played on the higher 3 octaves, while the lower bass 3 holes are left for the chords I, V, as bass or chord-harmonica.

A further idea to balance blow and draw breath is to take any tuning diatonic harmonica and make it with a lever with the same exactly notes but pushing the button changes the blow property of a note to a draw one of the same note and vice versa. Here is the example of a C major diatonic harmonica that by utilizing the designer of chromatic one we remain in the same notes of the diatonic but we use the lever of the chromatic harmonica to switch from the blow property of a note to a draw property of the same note and vice versa. Such an harmonic can be played with only blows or only draws too by using the lever. And of course it transfers draw to blow bends and vice versa.

And of course we may have a use of the button-lever not for chromatic version of the harmonica, but for jumping in the next octave in a diatonic harmonica


E.g. for a D major diatonic harmonica (cyclic with all the chords) a design of such a button would be the next
Attachments
C_major_Equal_breath.gif
C_major_Equal_breath.gif (38.37 KiB) Viewed 243 times
D_major_Octave_jump_(yodellng).gif
D_major_Octave_jump_(yodellng).gif (38.71 KiB) Viewed 243 times
Last edited by drkcostas on Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:51 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by drkcostas » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:03 pm

There is one aspect of Richter tuning compared to circular which is significant: It allows or forces mainly 3 chords I , ii, V, which are 2 major 1 minor thus forces happier music. Based on that one could ask what is the Richter-like tuning for the chords I,IV, V, which is somehow more often compared to Blues, in various folk cultures? (Similar questions can be posed for any 3 chords X1 X2 X3 of the diatonic scale with a similar unswer) I think the unswer is the next image tuning.
And it is also a mixture of Richter with circular (Richter in the fisrt 3 holes , to play chords I , V and circular in the rest of the holes 4-10 to play melodies (and all 7 chords) is also the next image.
The only advantage of the standard chromatic tuning is that it is periodic per each octave. Nevertheless the cost of it is double
1) There is significant loss in chord completness
2) We must reverse blowing drawng at the last notes 7 , 1 of each octave.
I believe it is better to sucrifice the periodicity per octave and have periodicity per 2 octaves and gain
1) Chord completness
2) no reversing of blow-draw at the last pair of each octave.
3) Because during the minimum of 2 octaves the blow-draw properties of the notes reverse, there is the possibility of breath-balance by shifting the melodic themes to the adjacent octave.

We may compare these with the complete Ionian mode circular tuning inthe 1st image

We may also notice that the 6-notes scales are favored for an harmonica, as the periodicity is per octave. A good example is the Celtic minor 6-notes scale ( in semitones 2-2-3-2-2-1) . An example is in the next table of tunning for the case of D root.
Attachments
CELTIC_D_MINOR.gif
CELTIC_D_MINOR.gif (21.15 KiB) Viewed 192 times
Ionian_mode_circular_tuning.gif
Ionian_mode_circular_tuning.gif (52.21 KiB) Viewed 844 times
Mixed_richter_circular.gif
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Last edited by drkcostas on Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:10 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by Brendan » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:11 am

I'm not sure if you know Dr. Costas, but recently I developed the Lucky 13 diatonic harmonica:

https://www.brendan-power.com/lucky13.php#lucky13

It's available in various tunings, but Richter is the main one. In that configuration it's normal 10-hole Richter plus a duplicated lower octave scale to increase the range to 4 octaves.

I think it could lend itself well to your present chord-based tuning experiments :)

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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by drkcostas » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:28 pm

Thank you Brendan. I saw something about it (lucky 13) but I did not study it thorougly. 4 octaves is a very attactive feature for an harmonica.Congratulations! I wonder if such harmonicas could devote the first 5-6 holes for playing in pairs chords X1(blow)-X2(draw), X4(blow)-X3(draw), or X1=X4 and X1(blow)-X2(draw), X1(blow)-X3(draw) (or any other triad of chords from a diatonic scale e.g. X1=I ,X2=V, X3=IV or X1=I ,X2=IV X3=V or X1=I ,X2=V, X3=ii or X1=I ,X2=ii X3=V or X1=vi ,X2=V, X3=IV or X1=I ,X2=iii X3=IV or X1=I , X2=vi , x3=V or X1=I , X2=iii , X3=V etc) and the rest of 8-7 holes for 2 full octaves with circular tuning for melodies and a full set of 7 chords. Three chords is a simple and very usual set of chords for easy improvisations.
I thing in general that you have brilliant ideas, and I want to study which of them, could apply , with harmonicas based at least partly on the Ionian circular tuning,and then ordered to you. I had already ordered before I discovered you, 19 harmonicas in Seydel, diatonic, harmonic-minor, chromatic etc based on the Ionian circular tuning in various Keys (more than 3,5 K euro), besides about 10 with classical paddy-Richter. And I estimate I will order in time some of your brillian innovations, if they can be based on Ionian circular tuning which I feel very friendly.
I indeed prefer the circular tuning for melodies compared to the one in standard chromatic harmonicas (copied from Richter tunning , middle part).
The only advantage of the standard chromatic tuning is that it is periodic per each octave.
Nevertheless the cost of it is triple in the next sense:
1) There is significant loss in chord completness
2) We must reverse blowing drawng at the last notes 7 , 1 at each octave.
3) No breath-balance of blow-draw properties of the notes of the octave
I believe it is better to sucrifice the periodicity per octave and have periodicity per 2 octaves (minmum 2 octaves) and gain
1) Chord completness
2) no reversing of blow-draw at the last pair of each octave.
3) Because during the minimum of 2 octaves the blow-draw properties of the notes reverse, there is the possibility of breath-balance by shifting the melodic themes to the adjacent octave.
In that perspective your lucky 13 harmonica of 4 octaves tuned as in the enquire in this post (3-4- chords at lower octaves and 2 full higher octaves of circular tuning for melodies and all other chords ) might be the unswer to the question of the title of this thread. In short, the lower half and 2 octaves selected chords for fast chords , and upper half and 2 octaves for melodies ionian circular tuning (with all the chords too)

E.g, for C major and chords X1=I, X2=V, X3=IV
hole--1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10--11--12--13
blow C3 E3 G3 C4 E4 G4 D5 F5 A5 C6 E6 G6 B6
draw G3 B3 D4 F4 A4 C5 E5 G5 B5 D6 F6 A6 C7

or
hole--1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10--11--12--13
blow C3 E3 G3 C4 E4 G4 C5 E5 G5 B6 D6 F6 A6
draw G3 B3 D4 F4 A4 C5 D5 F5 A5 C6 E6 G6 B6

and for C major and chords X1=I, X2=ii X3=V
hole--1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10--11--12--13
blow C3 E3 G3 C4 E4 G4 C5 E5 G5 B6 D6 F6 A6
draw D3 F3 A3 G4 B4 D5 D5 F5 A5 C6 E6 G6 B6

or for C major and chords X1=I, X2=V, X3=ii
hole--1--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10--11--12--13
blow C3 E3 G3 C4 E4 G4 C5 E5 G5 B6 D6 F6 A6
draw G3 B3 D4 D4 F4 A4 D5 F5 A5 C6 E6 G6 B6

As alternative to half chord-based and half-scaled based design of the tuning of the harmonica, we may have the multi-scales based design.

E.g. we may utilize half and the first part of the above harmonica to play the Blues 6-notes scale, and the rest the full diatonic scale (cyclic tuning) thus in total and for the C major scale as below

If we consider e.g. the C the blues 6-notes scale to to be the C Eb E F# G Bb (intervals in semitones 3-1-2-1-3-2) which is a 6-notes simplification of the double harmonic minor 7-notes scale C Eb E F F# G Bb (intervals in semitones 3-1-2-1-3-1-1. This double harmonic minor is a standard Byzantine 7-notes scale, besides the simple harmonic minor, which was also a standard Byzantine 7-notes scale), then the tuning would be

for C major and Blues+diatonic
hole--1-..-2-..-3-...-4...--5...--6...--7..--8..--9..--10..--11..--12..--13
blow C3.. E3.. G3.. C4.. E4.. G4...C5... E5.. G5... B6....D6...F6.. A6
draw Eb3. F#3. Bb4. Eb4. F#4. Bb4. D5.. F5.. A5... C6... E6... G6... B6

Notice that in the blowing row we have the chord C E G , 4 times initialy , while in the draw raw, the major chord Eb F# Bb and the major chord F# Bb Eb, and the augmented chord F# Bb D.
On the other habd if we consider that the Blues scale is the major country 6-notes scale C D Eb E G A C (interval structure 2-1-1-3-2-3) which is a 6-notes simplification of the 7-notes Byzantine parachromatic scale C D Eb E G Ab A C (interval structure 2-1-1-3-1-1-3) Then the tuning would be

for C major and country+diatonic
hole--1-...-2-...-3-....-4...--5...--6...--7..--8..--9..--10..--11..--12..--13
blow C3.. Eb3.. G3.. C4.. Eb4.. G4...C5...E5.. G5... B6....D6...F6..A6
draw D3.. E3... A4... D4... E4....A4...D5...F5.. A5.. C6.. E6... G6... B6

At the bow raw , we notice that we have the C minor 3 times and then the C major . At the dra raw no standard easy chords at the first 2 octaves here.

Similarly we could have more combinations of 2-scales like harmonic minor+diatonic etc

See an article about the first 4 blue notes of a diatonic scale here https://simplerguitarlearning.blogspot. ... e-and.html
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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by drkcostas » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:24 pm

As alternative to the above half chord-based and half-scaled based design of the tuning of the harmonica, we may have the multi-scales based design.

E.g. we may utilize half and the first part of the above harmonica to play the Blues 6-notes scale, and the rest the full diatonic scale (cyclic tuning) thus in total and for the C major scale as below

If we consider e.g. the C the blues 6-notes scale to be the C Eb E F# G Bb (intervals in semitones 3-1-2-1-3-2) which is a 6-notes simplification of the double harmonic minor 7-notes scale C Eb E F F# G Bb (intervals in semitones 3-1-2-1-3-1-1, This double harmonic minor is a standard Byzantine 7-notes scale, besides the simple harmonic minor, which was also a standard Byzantine 7-notes scale ), then the tuning would be

for C major and Blues+diatonic
hole--1-..-2-..-3-...-4...--5...--6...--7..--8..--9..--10..--11..--12..--13
blow C3.. E3.. G3.. C4.. E4.. G4...C5... E5.. G5... B6....D6...F6.. A6
draw Eb3. F#3. Bb4. Eb4. F#4. Bb4. D5.. F5.. A5... C6... E6... G6... B6

Notice that in the blowing row we have the chord C E G , 4 times initialy , while in the draw raw, the major chord Eb F# Bb and the major chord F# Bb Eb, and the augmented chord F# Bb D.
On the other hand if we consider that the Blues scale is the major country 6-notes scale C D Eb E G A C (interval structure 2-1-1-3-2-3) which is a 6-notes simplification of the 7-notes Byzantine parachromatic scale C D Eb E G Ab A C (interval structure 2-1-1-3-1-1-3 see article https://simplerguitarlearning.blogspot. ... rtone.html ) Then the tuning would be

for C major and country+diatonic
hole--1-...-2-...-3-....-4...--5...--6...--7..--8..--9..--10..--11..--12..--13
blow C3.. Eb3.. G3.. C4.. Eb4.. G4...C5...E5.. G5... B6....D6...F6..A6
draw D3.. E3... A4... D4... E4....A4...D5...F5.. A5.. C6.. E6... G6... B6

At the blow row , we notice that we have the C minor 3 times and then the C major . At the draw no standard easy chords at the first 2 octaves here.

Similarly we could have more combinations of 2-scales like harmonic minor+diatonic , or 6-notes version of the harmonic minor+ 7-notes diatonic
etc
See an article about the first 4 blue notes of a diatonic scale here https://simplerguitarlearning.blogspot. ... e-and.html
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Re: THE OPTIMAL TUNING FOR ALL TYPES OF MUSIC? THE ADVANTAGES OF THE IONIAN MODE CIRCULAR TUNING

Post by drkcostas » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:00 pm

DIATONIC HARMONICA FOR CHORDS MAINLY
The circular tuning as we mentioned provides all the chords of the diatonic scale, in the blow and draw rows in the melodic sequence, in other words by steps of intervals of 3rd. The blow and draw rows are in chromatic relation, in other words, they differ by an interval of 2nd. This pattern can be varied. E.g. the blow row and the draw may still remain a melodic sequence of chords but now the blow and draw rows can differ by an interval of 5th (harmonic relation), as in the next table of tuning for the D major diatonic scale. Such a tuning provides also all the chords, in blow-draw pairs that are in harmonic relation (differ by an interval of 5th) but it is not intended so as to play melodies of known songs, but rather to play mainly chords in pairs of harmonic relations and improvise almost randomly and still the result is harmonic and melodic to listen. The reason is that going up and down this harmonica tuning we are always within an arpeggio of a chord of the particular diatonic scale. Probably a happier alternative than the one in the table below would be that the draw rowhas lower pitch chords instead of higher. Thus for the first pair instead of blow=d4 f#4 a4 and draw=a4 c5 e5 , the blow=d4 f#4 a4 and draw=a3 c4 e4 . An enhancement of this idea so as to play melodies too besides chords is the twin system of Brendan, with two harps of diatonic scales that differ by a 5th.
In case we want also to play more chords of the same diatonic scale and in easier way , then we should use the slide feature and design the tuning as follows again for the D-major (The non-pushed slide is as before , while by pushing the slide we create another harmonc pair of blow-draw rows but at an interval of 2nd of this diatonic scale away from the previous and inside the same diatonc scale.)
Attachments
harmonic_shift_of_melodic_cycle_dmajor.gif
harmonic_shift_of_melodic_cycle_dmajor.gif (15.52 KiB) Viewed 167 times
Chromatic_pair_of_harmonic_shfts_Dmajor.gif
Chromatic_pair_of_harmonic_shfts_Dmajor.gif (16.04 KiB) Viewed 167 times
Last edited by drkcostas on Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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